Don't know about specific dates - but I do know that Bb's were more common
in US orchestras in previous generations.  Harry Glantz played the Bb as his
primary ax, and Seymour Rosenfeld played Bb almost all the time as 2nd
Trumpet with Philly - right up until his retirement in 1988.  (He would play
Bb on 2nd Trumpet - even if EVERYONE else in the section was playing a C
Trumpet...).  I'm sure there are plenty of other illustrations.   C Trumpets
seemed to become more "vogue" in the late 50's & 60's...

Honestly, IMO:  Whether a player or a section chooses Bb Trumpets over C
Trumpets isn't as much a pure "sound" issue as it reaches the audience... as
it is the FEEL of the playing in the section - it's a matter of how the
section wants to blend with each other, or how one player wants to blend or
match with the player next to them.
One interesting theory came up during the course of my Benge research as,
prior to the mid-1950s, it was very common to have trumpeters in major
orchestras playing Benge Bbs (examples: Elden Benge in Chicago, James Stamp in
Minnesota, the aformentioned Glantz & Rosenfeld, Ron Modell in Dallas, the
Cleveland guys, etc.). The theory is that the innovations of the Remington model
trombone (early 1950s) led to increased volume being generated by the low
brass, and that the large-bore C trumpets gave the trumpeters a better chance
of getting their sound across.
Another theory, of course, is that Bud Herseth sounded so good on his Bach
C (which he played because his teacher, Georges Mager, played an early Bach
C in Boston) that everyone wanted to sound like him.

It IS a very interesting topic.  A good question would be  what drew Mager to play a C?  What did the french know and do cause them to develop a C trumpet?   For me there is the question of where in the overtones we are.  once we get above the staff, the higher partials are a little less stable.  If you have to nail a high concert C, the chances of splitting that note and cacking it are higher on Bb than on the C.  I tend to think the Herseth influence was huge.  Bill Babcock studied with Mager at the same time as Herseth did and played with Bud in Chicago as Assistant principal trumpet.  Boston and Chicago were very influential.  I know that guys in Philly used to get Conn 22-B's cut down to play in C.  Jimmy Tamburini, on of my old teachers had one.  He was a student of Saul Caston at Curtis in the late 30's early 40's and got the job in Detroit when leonard smith went into the military during WWII.  There was likely some East Coast influences there.  I know Gil Johnson and Bernie Adelstein played C trumpets at least by the early 60's.

Well, I'm no longer as "refined" as you guys... <ggg>  But I certainly know
what you mean.  Back when I was "serious" I would have opted for a C
Trumpet, for any Strauss... I performed Also Sprach a few times, as well as
Heldenlaben, and the other tone poems.   I used a C for all of the - except
for Ein Heldenlaben.  I always used a Bb for that.  (Just lays better - for
me).

But the reason for me using the C back then was  because that was the horn I
practiced the literature on the most.  It was "the thing to do".  At this
point, if I found myself in a position of having to play these pieces again,
I would probably feel more comfortable on a Bb.    The C would feel "too
tight" for me.

I really think it's what you get used to, in the final analysis.

The secret to Zarathustra success is to play *that* octave leap on either a D tpt or a rotary C with a high C key. Works like a charm.
Not being an orchestral player, I have no personal experience to warrant an opinion.

However, Doc Reinhardt told me that it had something to do with the orchestral trumpeter's trend toward large mouthpieces and that "resonant" or "dark" sound. He said the irony was that trumpeters began losing their cutting power (when needed) over a full orchestra and somewhere along the way it was discovered that the C trumpet helped them get some of that back.

Don't forget, Reinhardt was a symphony player back in the day and personally knew a lot of the "big guys" that get talked about a lot around here. He never steered me wrong in any other way, so I've always believed his analysis of this.

Oh, and he said that if you asked one of the C trumpet guys about this they'd deny that to their dying breath.

I would take that challenge..
Of course I would use a rotary Bb where the water key is also
A high D key ;O)
Just as easy on both.

Also the top D ( on Bb ) in Ein Heldenleben is just another note
With a Bb rotary and the water key

In that excerpt you need to play loud and the Uberblasen Klappe lives up to
it's name of over blowing key. Freed of the back pressure the volume comes
easily but not harshly. Instead of spreading and blating it narrows and
focuses
A noble trumpet sound instead of

Ever wonder how the BPO and VPO get that great brilliant sound above the
staff without blare..
Now you know. That and they double the trumpets so the players don't have to
blast and over play.

If you watch the Lucerne Festival Orchestra DVD of Mahler V you can actually
see Rheinhold Friedrich use the key on the opening which is simply
outstanding as a performance. Way recommended just for the trumpet playin

This is the "Wienner KLappe" or Vienna Key
It is also called the "Uberblassen Klappe"
The latter is more accurate as it is really a vent key

It looks like a water key but is operated by the little finger

So when you play the octave leap to high c on a C rotary opening the vent
key improves the intonation and allow the C to be played without back
pressure. So you can "slot" it pp with no problems

The C key works on Ab-C -Eb
The water key on the slide is actually a Bb-D-F key

You can also have keys for A-C#-E and G-B-D

By the way I have a Bb Rotary with these keys on a tuning slide plus a
regular slide for sale for $1900
You have to bear in mind that over here in the UK, the Bb is standard in the
symphony orchestras.  Players do use other instruments at their discretion,
but you won't see many students at music colleges playing excerpts on the C
trumpet either - all on Bb, occasionally D/Eb and picc.  C trumpets seem to
be the most rare beasts over here!
Based on what I have read, C trumpets were not the horns most often used here in the US until the last 30 or 40 years.  Didn't C trumpets gradually become chosen more than Bb since the 1950s or 1960s?
Yeah all us 'Brits' know that the only reason you 'Yanks' use different horns is cause you can't transpose properly!!

Greg 'gonna get some flak' Norton


B-flat is used in many English orchestras.
Back in the Groth/Kretzer days of the Berlin Philharmonic,
B-flat rotaries were commonly used, though C rotaries as well.

B-flats get used in the USA also, for things like Ein Heldenleben
(the E-flat parts are played on B-flat trumpet).

The E-flat trumpet seems rarely used.
London Symphony uses Bb Trumpets as the "standard".   I won't argue with
Maurice Murphy (or his legacy).  Any ax can be the standard, as long as the
man behind the gun is hitting the target.

Or...  as the saying goes:  "It ain't the horn on the bum... it's the bum on
the horn".